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So I have lots of veg*n and I couldn't stop noticing that most of them seem to express a strong hatred of Christians. Lots of them seem to be friendly towards me but it turns out that they only hate when people use God as an excuse to eat animals.
I want a truthful answer here. How do you feel about Christians? Do you feel the same way they do?
I have been studying the Judeo Christian Bible in regard to vegetarianism (sounds like a religion with the ism) ever since this forum post. Just as i do not want to be a servant unto a archaic superstitious patriarchal false religion, i also do not want to be a servant to "new age hate".
I can see no regard for life in this book other than for the life of those who follow this book’s teaching and for those who follow it’s agenda. Here is just a few excerpts of this text to give some indication to what i have found. There is a lot more but this should get you started if you are interested.
Genesis 9:3 English Standard Version (ESV)
9:3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.
Old Testament does not give indication of meat free diet. One of the bibles at my house actually says meat.
Matthew 8:28 New International Version (NIV) Jesus thinks nothing of killing swine. Even the demons get a choice over the pigs. This is the story of Jesus Restores Two Demon-Possessed Men
28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes,[c] two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"
30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."
32 He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
1st Corinthians Chapter 8 - King James
: I should let you look that up if you are interested. I see no regard for animal life here with in this chapter. I only see a concern in converting and avoiding the confusion of inductees of animal sacrifice unto idols. I can see the confusion and misinterpretation that could be derived from this chapter if you do not read it in context. The well being of the animal is not the concern of this text.
I can see nothing in the Judeo Christian Bible that regards life as anything else but a plaything for a jealous contemptuous god.
Yes i agree and i am not beyond being one who is confused. I have many friends and family that are Christian. Gays are not killed but it is not condoned, it is ostracised from my understanding in new testament. Women are not allowed to hold high office in the church. There are some fundamental things that they are slowly realizing is not "value added".
I do not want to alienate or divide our endeavor of "loving and not harming life" with political and spiritual issues other than "not harming life" itself and at the same time am reluctant to deceive my self. There is a lumbering political and religious shadow always upon our noble cause. I think that any religious paradigm you follow if it is paralleled by vegetarian mindfulness will work itseld out. It is an evolving endeavor in my opinion. It is an age of realization.
As a Christian, I am letting you know that its because people are just using that excuse to justify their murder and they thinking blaming God is okay.
People, whether Christian, Hindu, Native American, whatever, just make stuff up to rationalize what they already do.
Here are some cool bible verses.
Genesis 1:29-31 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so. God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.
Isaiah 1:11-17 “The multitude of your sacrifices— what are they to me?” says the Lord. “I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—I cannot bear your worthless assemblies. Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals I hate with all my being. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you; even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood! Wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight; stop doing wrong. Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow!"
66:3-4 "But whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a person, and whoever offers a lamb is like one who breaks a dog’s neck; whoever makes a grain offering is like one who presents pig’s blood, and whoever burns memorial incense is like one who worships an idol. They have chosen their own ways, and they delight in their abominations; so I also will choose harsh treatment for them and will bring on them what they dread. For when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, no one listened. They did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me.”
Hosea 6:6" For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings."
Psalm 50:7-13 “Listen, my people, and I will speak; I will testify against you, Israel: I am God, your God. I bring no charges against you concerning your sacrifices or concerning your burnt offerings, which are ever before me. I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills. I know every bird in the mountains, and the insects in the fields are mine. If I were hungry I would not tell you, for the world is mine, and all that is in it. Do I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats?"
Proverbs 23:20 Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat
Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”
Matthew 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
Lol, those were just some bible verses on vegetarianism I thought were cool, and that post was in no way an attack on Christians. But since you asked...
Yes, I understand that the bible as a whole paints a much different picture. In fact, it's well known that you can use the bible to justify almost anything. And I've read the Bible; I've actually read more than a few translations all the way through because I have a strange interest in all religious texts. However, I would never consider myself a theologian in the way you mean because the Bible is just a book, and not one with a good academic track record either. God is bigger than a book written by people.
Interestingly, Lent was stricly vegan in the past, but was changed over time to include fish and other animal products and in different places that the church spread.
Also, here are some facts that are indisputable from a biblical perspective:
1 - God intended man and all animals to eat plants in the garden of eden, only after they committed many attrocities did God allow them to eat meat as a result of their impoverished conditions.
2- Jesus was sentenced to die for the scene he made at the temple which included turning over the money changers tables and freeing animals destined for ritual slaughter.
3 - There is no instance of Jesus eating meat, but the passover meal (which traditionally had a sacrificed lamb) was replaced with bread that represented his own body. It also says in the prophecies of Isaiah regarding the messiah that he would eat curds and honey.
4 - Jesus never said "Hell", he used two words that became "Hell" much later. One was hades, the greek world of the dead, and the other was Gehenna, literally a garbage dump with a perpetual fire in it. It was used by Jews to cremate those who died an impure way (such as suicide, cremation being considered an unholy way to deal with a Jewish corpse) and was also used for worshippers of gods that demanded child sacrifice. The Catholic church, when they made the bible up in around 300 AD, translated both these words to one "infernus."
And from a historical perspective, it's well known that the early christians were vegetarian. It wasn't until Paul made up his own Roman version of Christianity that vegetarianism became optional. It was actually one of the big disputes between Paul and the early church led by the disciples and Jesus' own brother.
Besides, I totally love Jesus and consider him one of my biggest influences in life. I also hate the churches and mainstream christian thought, especially Popery. FUCK THE POPE. Sorry. The Pope can go fuck himself for all the harm he causes.
Judaism and vegetarianism, unrelated but interesting.
I originally read your post not as an attack of using the Bible for supporting meat eating but as you said, some quotes that show that people might want to use scripture to rationalize their behavior. Hopefully you also realize that your quotes are not as you say later: just some bible verses on vegetarianism.
Some of them are and some are not. Such as: I am God, your God. I bring no charges against you concerning your sacrifices or concerning your burnt offerings, which are ever before me.
I notice that most of the quotes are related to Jesus or God being unimpressed by ritualism, of which some were related to blood offerings, and some grains, and some incense. Let's also remember that when Cain and Abel made their offerings of a dead animal and some grains, the grains were rejected and the dead animal was accepted. That verse always baffled me and I never have heard a good explanation from a vegetarian about it. Maybe you could take a crack at it, eMCee?
About your other points:
I have a strange interest in all religious texts.
that is kinda funny because you have dodged all my points about karma and any other metaphysical reality just saying you don't believe in them. usually a person with a valid interest is able to dialogue about such topics but you seem yet unable to. your level of interest doesn't seem to interesting to me.
People, whether Christian, Hindu, Native American, whatever, just make stuff up to rationalize what they already do.
the same goes for the rest of the world. plenty of people make up stuff to rationalize their behavior. you have ranted about their being no intent so you don't need to feel any level of guilt for doing any wrong in the past such as eating meat or contributing to killing of animals. I would say that at least people who have a religion or even secular ideology to follow at least have a basis which to argue from and to be debated from.
I find your ideology to be rather slippery in many ways because you always boast that you are basing your belief on facts and when the analysis cannot be verified fully because of too many things to look at, you just take whatever suits you since someone claimed some facts. the fact is that even a scientist knows that his or her data may be flawed and the fact is that they are working with theories most of the time, not facts.
when scientists do not know something, they just say they don't know. it is our teachers in school that present whatever the latest scientific conclusions are as fact.
FUCK THE POPE. Sorry. The Pope can go fuck himself for all the harm he causes.
I am going to ask you to refrain from using condemning words against a religious figure since you might be harming the feelings and faith of any Christians on the site. If you apologize, it would be good. You have claimed previously that you are attacks against my beliefs previously were never personal so I have no basis to object, but your words consistently show differently. every member has the right to enforce the forum ettiquette so I am taking my right to call you out on this. I don't do this because I agree with the Pope. Maybe I do, and maybe I don't. If I want, I can critique his bad policy and how he harms the world if I saw it as informative for others. You have that right to, but you don't have the right to use offensive and harmful language toward a public figure or any other member here.
I am asking you now to apologize for the remark. Hopefully you will appreciate the fact that I am not back biting you in chat or creating a hate group in the group section to gossip about you. I am doing it publicly and asking you nicely. I appreciate your contributions to the forum, but only the positive ones, not the negative ones.
Thank you for putting it in such an easy to read format. here is so much evidence for the vegetarian path of Jesus and many followers of the actual teachings and Jewish Laws that demanded the no harm way of living. Greece, Egypt, Persia, the Far East and Middle East had many masters who all taught and performed the same initiations and knew of the sacred ways. There is much that these evolved souls see and perceive that is beyond the ability of mere physical eyes and ears.
Thank you for isolating these verses. I have researched and learned that many biblical scholars have noted how men would edit to suit their own needs and desires. Basically, the main point of the original verses that somehow were left unchanged all point to self realization via third eye meditation after being connected to the divine sound and light via initiation, and reincarnation, vegetarian and moral living, and avoidance of strong drink are conditions to be met and adhered to. There are cloaked references to inner light and sound (Logos, the Word, sounds of various horns and instruments) and in later New Testament, somehow a few mystical sayings are left intact such as "If thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be filled with light" This is a direct reference to the third eye meditation any initiate into the Logos is going to experience. This is a path only a few souls in every generation of man is ready to follow, and we can find that it existed in many areas and times with just a bit of research. However, the true spiritual answers come during meditation, via direct experience, not via intellectual questioning.
In the past few years it seems there are a growing number of people who feel its perfectly acceptable to pick apart and ridicule the Christian faith and the Holy Bible when most of the same people wouldn't dare do so to a Muslim, a Hindu, an Atheist or most any other ideology.
as far as I have noticed, this has been going on for ages, in America or otherwise. our own founding fathers critiqued Christianity in numerous letters. Thomas Jefferson made many comments against Christianity in private writings. the Romans also made numerous complaints about the growth of Christian religion. this isn't a new thing as far as I know and also there are plenty of sites that criticize every religion under the sun. plenty of anti-muslim sites made by Christians as well.
Christians aren't trying to convince you of anything.
Christian history shows just about the opposite. Evangelism that has gone on and still goes on tries to convince the world that they are sinners and need to accept Christ lest they go to hell. if that is not trying to convince, then I don't know what is. It is one of the cornerstones of the faith and not much different than many other religions or ideologies. Hopefully you have noticed the number of vegans that try to convince other vegetarians that they are bad, both on and off this site. some are even saying that vegetarians who wear old leather boots are transgressing animal rights and veggie ethics. the battle and debate goes on because it is almost natural for someone to try to convince others of their own beliefs. I don't say it is right, but I say it is more or less natural and common. I would say however to live in one's own beliefs and not be disturbed by the actions of others so much is a sign of maturity and strong faith in one's own ethics.
Christians by and large are some of the gentlest, peaceful, caring loving people I know. Their mission is philanthropy, family, love, faith and God so most won't bother calling out the ignorance of others
I agree with you 100%. I have a lot of really great Christian friends. I notice also that the Catholic Church has done some of the best social work on the planet and still does. The Dalai Lama of Tibet has also encouraged his own monks to notice the work of the Catholics and try to imbibe their example in matters of welfare work.
but are we really at a place where on the same page someone is accusing someone else of being a racist, someone else can ridicule someone for their religious beliefs and that goes unchecked?
this is a good point. whenever I see something wacky and discouraging coming from other members, I just report it to Xiao. there were some threads in the past when I first joined discussing some points of creating good forum rules. I chipped in some ideas and others did too and now we actually have board rules. whether they are being followed 100% is another thing but as far as I know, that is in process. I still report things when I see something wrong and pretty soon it gets resolved. I am patiently waiting for everything I raise to be addressed. I would encourage you to lodge a complaint in "report abuse" if you see something wrong.
Part of living in America (and I realize some of you may not) is that we don't discriminate against each other based on race, color, religion, sexual orientation, etc.
that is definitely part of living in America, but their are parts of America which are not like that at all and discrimination is okay and also unchecked. most of my life has been sheltered in that way, living in NY or nearby. there are so many cultures around that I didn't really know what racism was except for some of the stuff that happens between communities in NY which is racial tension between groups. it is hard to change that overnight because it is a large dynamic. but at least the city is a place where you can always find support more or less. when I moved to the west coast, I found a surprising amount of racism and discriminatin in supposed liberal cities.
well my point is that it is not all cut and dry. when we get subject to discrimination on any level, it is hard. for me it has been way harder receiving discrimination from people who claim to be progressive. I consider it worse than conservative discrimination because at least I know why the person is that way which may be due to ignorance whereas a liberal has fewer excuses.
On of all places a so called Vegetarian page where people gather to share with each other their "compassion", I find this disgusting!
Ya, I really vote that this sort of thing stops. We all have power on the site to discuss so this discussion is important. I am glad that you bring it up and I hope others do. I will continue to do so.
*********and btw, I have no objection to Jesus or Christians for that matter. I might agree with some critiques here and there but I would never want to generalize. I take everyone as an individual. I have plenty of Christian friends and I ask them questions all the time about why the beliefs are a certain way. And if they don't want to discuss it, I don't. Arguing is pretty useless considering there are more important aspects of the relationship to celebrate quite normally.
I have researched quite a bit on the origins of all major religions excluding Islam. Evidence points to Ascended Masters initiating into mystical Logos, Word, Sound Current, Living Water Light & Sound Vibration within the third eye, acknowledging successive incarnations and readying the soul to return to our original "Home". Higher conscious and all that exists is within our third eye region, and the "emanation" is the "Word". All religions started out with these select groups of a master and initiates who had incarnated enough to reach a higher state. Direct mystical experiences were not publicly discussed, only metaphors and parables conveyed to fellow mystics what was being discussed. All began as strict vegetarians, non-interference in the life paths and birth rights and freedoms of all beings was emphasized and was the Law. Judaism, Christianity, (Jesua appointed his brother, James to become Master upon his death, and the family continued to follow the Path until the Romans and the followers of the false Paul or Saul overtook them. Murders and burnings of texts was rampant, committed against he highly evolved by the uninitiated and brutal men who sacrificed in the temple, against original Jewish Law, and in Roman temples, etc. Majority were the meat eaters, wine drinkers, (then as now, apparently) and they had to twist the truth, edit out references to vegetarian ways so that they would not have to give up their meat. The "victors'" editions of the Truth were what was handed down, as is fairly common in history of man. Paul never was initiated by either Jesua or John the Baptist, and all of Jesua's initiates argued vehemently against the lies he was spreading in regards to it being fine to eat meat, or that he had any experiential knowledge of Jesua in the first place. However, Paul's way was much more popular, and the Romans backed he way of the meat eater, naturally. This and many other distortions of the life and reason for Jesus, John the Baptist, the two Marys, Moses, etc, are just too hard for the person who knows the truth to bear. It is good that many of the original vegetarian conditions of some of the other religions and masters have not been altered, although some Buddhists and Hindus, Taoists and other will choose to eat animals, they never attempt to cover up the true teachings. IF you look up Ebionites, Gnostics, Essenes, Mandeans, Manacheans, etc you may learn more about how the regular teachings and practices came to be stomped into oblivion. Also look up the Greek mystery schools and see the similarities...Pythaoras and other, Egyptians (Amen) Persian mystics, etc. Krishnas, Sikhs, Nanak, et al share certain things in common: The Logos, initiation, meditation within the third eye, reincarnation, vegetarian and no-harm philosophy....We can read how Jesua came to end sacrifice, how he told the Rabbis that they broke their own religious laws by eating animals, how he went into the temple and pointed out that they were breaking God's law by sacrificing animals within (for eating, of course, he animals are sacrificed) and how so much that became the Christian religion was merely based upon he beliefs and traditions of Romans and pagans, transferred over, NOT by experiencers of the mystical, higher regions within the third eye via mediation and initiation and ethical living. For me, I find too many Christians to be reluctant t seek out the truth as it is inconvenient for them to give up condemning, judging, insulting, eating meat, drinking, and being self-righteous. They refuse to acknowledge how they are harming Earth Mother and their own karma ad our collective karma by going against the true teachings of the man / Master they claim to follow.