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HYPOCRITICAL & ILLOGICAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STILL HAVE "BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS" AIDING & ABETTING "YOUR" CARNAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mr. Gross, would you mind going easy on the CAPS?
I don't mind you disagreeing with me at all Gary...and by the way...I speak from my opinion and dont claim any authority...but if you are remarking that my point is illogical...I would have to say that yours looks more so to me by way of the example you gave.
If you dont kill the animal with your own hands...yu cant have any blood there. your argument is common since many feel that eating animals is as you say, aiding and abetting...but I find that argument to be rather rash and unthorough. I have posted many a time on the difference between eating an animal or asking someone to kill it for one's own food many a time so I wont go into great depth. I would just wish that you would make more of a logical point instead of pointing out a fallacy that lacks any sort of logic itself.
in other words...I would just say...lets discuss things and not be so bent on being right. we learn more this way.
Agreed Fruitfly. I will say this in support of the content, THOUGH CERTAINLY NOT THE QUALITY of the above gross statement. Yogasutra II.34 may be translated as:
"Negative thoughts are violence, etc. They may be personally performed, performed on one's behalf by another, or authorized by oneself; they might be triggered by greed, anger, or delusion; and they may be slight, moderate, or extreme in intensity. One should cultivate counteracting thoughts, namely that the end results [of negative thoughts] are ongoing suffering and ignorance."
Most commentaries on this sutra adress the vegetarian ethic as relates specifically to "performed on one's behalf by another." Though one did not kill the animal, the animal was killed for him/her and therefore the karma of murder is shared equally by the one who kills and the one who eats...perhaps something like an accessory to a crime/murder. Ignorance of an animal death is not an excuse, unless one is a child whose parents have shielded them from the truth...the parents share in the karma then.
Anyways, most if not all Vedic scholars interpret this and consider eating and killing an animal to be the same offense of "ahimsa," or non-violence. I've thought long about this one and I have to agree. In my heart it is the same.
I think Gary Gross that you could tone it down a bit and still participate. I understand the intensity of your emotion. Our words can cause hurt; this is something I have to work on as well, to extend compassion to people I don't agree with. In hurting another with our words are we not still causing violence??
Well how do you do that?
Hey Bekah. I did not mean to attack you and I apologize for calling you foolish. It is easy to become empassioned in this discussion. The topic is pretty sensitive and I often get a little insulting, both on-line and in personal conversations. I mean no harm and support you in your vegetarian lifestyle and I certainly hope I have not driven you away. I have to work on being as compassionate with human animals as with non-humans. Please don't take my texts as judgement of you; I am no where near perfect and I certainly don't want to come off that way. My hope is that we can all come together and share our experiences, strengthen our base and persuade others. I'll work on being more delicate and less accusatory. Please accept my apology and a big on-line hug. I am sorry.
The Bible is clear on page one.....God said it......"Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food." Genesi 1:29. He told us what we were to eat. He made our bodies to consume plants...not animals. Then after the flood, yes there really was a Noah and a big ol' ark....He let them eat animals. Genesis 3:21; 4:4; 9:3 He made it clear what animals were safe to eat (clean and unclean)..but this was not HIs first intention. People have come to say that He gave us dominion over animals...which is true....but they confuse dominion with food. This is clearly not the case. Then they use a dream that Peter had in the NT to say that there is no difference in clean or unclean....which is pure stupidity! I mean....ask them if they would eat a poison tree frog? Clearly they would say no! But...I tell them that there is a huge difference in what is relatively safe to eat. I am a vegan and believe God's perfect design was for us to live off the plants of the land......after much study of the human body...I am thoroughly convinced that our bodies were not designed to eat meat.....anyways.....Peter's vision in Acts 10...is clearly, to the Bible scholar, not about clean and unclean animals at all! It is about the Jews and the Gentiles being one new man in Jesus. People love eating meat and animal products and they will use any excuse to do so. I love it when they say..."As long as I bless it, it is safe to eat!" Oh really.......then I ask them about the poison tree frog.....and they are like...."You know what I mean." Would they eat their cat? Dog? Horse? Okay...so anyways......that is my take
"Christians" have a way of justifying there actions to do what they want...goodness....we could talk about thsi forever. I had a meateating Christian tell me the other day....."I love meat and as long as I bless it, God makes it fit for my eating." Ohhhh really??? That has to be the stupidest thing Christians say. No wonder ify you look around church....you can see evident of gluttony all around. I just had this discussion the other day too......Why are Christians so apt to point out sins.....but totally overlook gluttony? Is being fat a sin?? Is it not taking care of the Holy Temple?? Have you ever been to a church function where unhealthy food doesn't abound? Crazy....and then they said...."Well, God made me this way." Noooo .it isn't God who made you this way....it's the cookies, candy, cakes, dairy, meat.....etc" Okay.....where did that all come from? haha.
Somebody must have read the bible totally wrong. The bible says we CAN eat animals, but we don't HAVE TO.
I don't think that the type of "CAN" that Karin is speaking of is the same as the type that you are Gerett. She seems to be expressing that God gave permission in the Bible to eat flesh as food. Its true that there are so many places where roots and herbs and so forth are mentioned as food but I have yet to see something convincing that shows that the Bible denounces eating meat more than it allows for it.
I am also not sure why it isn't fine for Chrisitans to be vegan and accept that not all Christians need to be vegan in order to be Christian. In other words...what is the point in trying to make arguments for veganism from the Bible when it is seemingly a bit of a slippery slope? It becomes a similar spirit of evangelism that many don't even like in mainstream religions.
Back to your points Gerett, the examples you bring up are just about facts of life that people die, there is pain in childbirth etc, but they aren't things that God allowed so to speak. I am all for Christians being vegan and seeing the point in it, but to bend the Bible to suit our dietary needs doesn't make much sense to me.
Gerret, there certainly are more types of CAN then what you mention. I would like to avoid pulling definitions from the dictionary to prove my point, but you may know as well as I do that something that someone "can" do can be something that someone allows and also something that someone "can" do can also be something they are capable of doing.
I certainly haven't forgotten that you have an esoteric slant of the Christian belief system...but perhaps you have forgotten that I have complemented you time and again for that if you are suspecting that I had forgotten?
As far as how many times I have read the Bible or not at all, it seems like you are posting rhetorically or a bit too combative so I don't really feel like answering that. Over the time I have been on this site, I have been quite transparent of my level of knowledge and interest in the Bible and as long as I back up my points with some relevant facts, I suspect it doesn't matter how many times I have read it or not. I have studied the Bible academically and casually in the past, but I am not a Christian.
I am not sure how to respond to other things that you write because it seems like you want me to take your version of the Bible as a given that you know what you are talking about and others don't. Your reference that...
"He basically said, don't eat it, but you can..." doesn't have any backing at least in this post, so I can't assume that you know what you are saying unless you point it out. I would only ever take your points in a way of discussion anyway and not that you are right about everything. I haven't said that you are bending the Bible either particularly so there is no need for you to think that I am. What I said is that in general, I don't find much proof of vegetarianism in the Bible and in general, I believe that people bend the words of the Bible to believe that it does. Perhaps you need not take it personally and throw out personal remarks in defense?
That you don't have time to argue is a bit odd because this is a forum where people discuss through comments. Sure, if you don't like to respond, then you don't have to, but I post my comments when I have the time, and when I don't, I don't make a big deal about not having the time to do it...I just don't do it. You might find yourself discussing with many people who don't follow your version of faith...perhaps get used to it? Or don't bother to pose yourself as an authority?
I have experienced the divine directly, not like a "believer" who has "faith" I am a "knower" who "knows". So as far as me being arrogant and thinking I am better, no, that is not the idea. But in line of me having a higher spiritual revelation, and being called to guide people in righteousness, yes, that is the idea.
sorry man...you lost me right here. lost in the sense, there is no room for me to walk this road with you if you stay stuff like that. if you claim to have a higher spiritual revelation than others...I just call that a mistake to proclaim such a thing. I don't mind you having some kind of revelation...I mean, we all sort of do. but proclaiming to know more than others instead of proving it undisputedly is just not the road I want to walk for my life...but have a nice trip.
As far as the others stuff...I can't really engage in dialogue without people quoting my words. Half the time I am not sure why you are arguing points which I haven't argued about. It gets too scattered at this point for me. In the past when I spent a lot of energy in trying to decipher another person's scattered thoughts, I just get deeper and deeper into a place that I don't belong. If you ever want to try a more systematic point for point approach, I would do it. But anyway, I have responded to at least one of your points here and I am done for now.
Have a brilliant, enlightened more than other people day Gerret. I am not joining that church though...sorry.